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03 February 2009 @ 11:07 pm
Update. Stunned update.  
Okay, that took my breath away. igorsanchez just posted to tnh's livejournal. He hadn't been banned.

Let us review. She deleted everything spiralsheep said, down to and including her one word "Okay" answer. She deleted and banned me for this:

 Patrick said stupid shit, was called out on it, and stomped off in a
 sulk. That's his right, but I'm finding all the self-dramatization about
 it pretty shameful. And it gets worse every round; the important thing,
 oh the always important thing is the hurt feelings of white people.

 If pnh wanted to justify why the PoCs involved were "less intelligent
 that others" he damn well better back it up with intelligent analysis. He
 didn't. Instead it was all about how people were being mean to him.

She banned perhaps a dozen other people, ranging from scrupulously polite to harsh. But Igor? Igor she was perfect happy to have in her journal, posting things like this (and this is only a sampling):

Highlight to see.


  • Subject: shut up.
    cant say nuthin bad bout niggers.
    dont worry, we have a nigger pres, cant shiop u all back to africa like
     we should.

  • hahaha "springboard for discussion?"
     what are you, some jew dyke

  •  y the fuck should anyone listen to you you stupid fat nigger

  •  die feminazi bitch!

  •  PLEASE LAY DOWN AND DIE, CUNT.
     OR AT LEAST SHUT THE FUCK UP



Oh, I guess I shouldn't count the last one, since tnh has already said it is a wonderful word, worthy of roses.


The only difference? igorsanchez was spewing this stuff against her "enemies". The people that were in her head a legion of sockpuppets foisted against her by a master troll.

I'm going to say it again: Teresa Nielsen Hayden is fucked in the goddamn head.
 
 
 
I'd forgotten how often we saw Magritte: salvador knows fear.colubra on February 4th, 2009 07:12 am (UTC)
jeebus.
(Deleted comment)
Lauratavella on February 4th, 2009 07:57 am (UTC)
chopchica has a good rundown of the tnh fail part of it. Avalon's Willow has a timeline of what led up to that fail. One of the unfortunate things is that it's turned from a discussion of cultural appropriation to the Watching tnh Melt Down Show.
(Deleted comment)
PROBE UNIVERSE: reaction: mr. yuck says yuckliviapenn on February 4th, 2009 07:37 am (UTC)


This... is confusing. TNH left this comment on Tempest's blog just yesterday, on 01/02/2009:

Kynn, my heartfelt vote of thanks for outing Luke Jackson/Igor Sanchez. You’re a public benefactor. There aren’t as many serious bad guys online as you’d sometimes think, but they do a disproportionate amount of damage, and they get worse with time and practice. Luke Jackson’s on a scary trajectory, and he’s starting to take it into the real world. I hope someone who has standing will talk to the police about him.

So... she *knows*... so why do those comments still exist?
Lauratavella on February 4th, 2009 07:51 am (UTC)
He was mostly posting in the post she eventually locked -- though they were never deleted that I saw. The thing that stunned me, though, was that she never banned him! She was, and still is, deleting and banning people left and right, including incredibly polite ones, and he was spewing that utter foulness and it apparently didn't bother her in the slightest. And it wasn't ignorance, either -- she claimed to be monitoring ips and combing that post for trolls and sockpuppets.

She's really showed her true face to me, or maybe it's what she's turned into as she got older.
PROBE UNIVERSE: harley: not listening not listening!liviapenn on February 4th, 2009 08:09 am (UTC)

The only non-insane reason I could think of for leaving the comments up would be to preserve the historical record (ie, if someone later comes along and says "what's so bad about Luke Jackson," the comments are there.)

But even then, I mean,does it not occur to her that people might be *hurt* by stumbling across this kind of ugly crap?

She could at least screen them and maybe add an ETA to her post saying something like, "hey, if anyone ever wants these comments back as proof that Luke Jackson/Igor Sanchez gleefully uses hate speech against PoC, women, lesbians, Jews, etc., I'll unscreen them, but right now I don't want to host that kind of language?"

But then, she seemed really unfamiliar with the lj interface. I know someone was working on explaining freezing comments to her, but maybe no one explained screening.

Honestly, though, I just can't imagine being comfortable with those comments even *existing* on a post of mine. Even if no one else ever saw them, it would just freak me the HELL OUT to even have those comments on my lj! I would probably delete them & ban the poster out of reflex, *instantly*--! And I mean, we know she knows how to do THAT... It is very weird. Who knows what is going on in her head.
Lauratavella on February 4th, 2009 06:25 pm (UTC)
Well, to be fair, the post is now locked so no one (except maybe her friendslist) is going to come across them now. Except here, and believe me, I felt pretty uncomfortable putting them up. I wish LJ had a spoiler function so I could hide them so people don't have to see them when checking the comments.

But literally, her last message on the thread (and it was well after igorsanchez started posting)before locking the post from view was "For now, I've been letting the trolls and sockpuppets romp while the site logs IP addresses. In just a minute I'm going to lock the place down, finish collecting telltales, and delete everything that's not worth the electrons."

I don't hold people necessarily responsible for trolls that run around in their journal. But when you've been assiduously banning people, when you you go on and on about how you are a mighty troll-hunter, when you say in the *very post* that you are tracking IPs and deleting people. When you then ban people for polite disagreement, and leave this guy free... yeah, I think it says something very ugly about your views.


Edited at 2009-02-04 06:26 pm (UTC)
Traviskyuuketsukirui on February 5th, 2009 02:29 am (UTC)
You use this:

<span style="background-color: #FFFFFF; color: #FFFFFF;">text goes here</span>

That will make both the background and the text white, so people can highlight it if they want to see it, but otherwise won't have to.
Lauratavella on February 5th, 2009 02:57 am (UTC)
Thank you very much!
Troubletroubleinchina on February 4th, 2009 07:00 pm (UTC)
I'm so sorry that this is happening with someone you once respected. It must be very painful - I know it is for me, and TNH was never really significant to me.
K Tempest Bradfordktempest on February 4th, 2009 04:40 pm (UTC)
my head is exploding from that. I don't understand what she's playing at.
Lauratavella on February 4th, 2009 05:45 pm (UTC)
And it's not like people didn't tell her that he was darkerblogistan. Literally the *second reply* to his first racist comment in her journal was from beth_bernobich, saying "fyi, rumor says this is the same guy as darkerblogistan." Eight days ago! And yet it took a lot of public mocking for her to even ban darkerblogistan and she left this guy alone.
That Chick with the Evil Laughsparkymonster on February 4th, 2009 05:57 pm (UTC)
or for instance

http://tempest.fluidartist.com/2009/01/30/what-real-abuse-attacks-and-hate-looks-like/#comment-14430
tnh says:
Kynn, my heartfelt vote of thanks for outing Luke Jackson/Igor Sanchez. You’re a public benefactor. There aren’t as many serious bad guys online as you’d sometimes think, but they do a disproportionate amount of damage, and they get worse with time and practice. Luke Jackson’s on a scary trajectory, and he’s starting to take it into the real world. I hope someone who has standing will talk to the police about him.
I admired your judicious comments on the relationship between writer and content:
Writing graphic rape/murder scenes makes you … a writer, not a rapist/murderer.
Choice of a horrible topic doesn’t mean that you, yourself, are a horrible person
- just whatever character you’re writing at the moment. I do think, though, that there
are always choices we make about how and why we write on the topics we’ve chosen - and
those choices will sometimes reveal something about us. [indented section written by kynn]

That’s as good a summary as I’ve seen of that issue.

And Tempest, thank you for being willing to go public about this stuff. Have I ever mentioned that I’ve loathed William Sanders for more than a decade now?
Jonquil Serpyllumjonquil on February 4th, 2009 08:04 pm (UTC)
> Have I ever mentioned that I’ve loathed William Sanders for more than a decade now?

Well, glad to see that she's familiar with the imbroglios of six months ago. Think that in another six months she'll catch up with this one? She is clawing for credit in the past -- apparently the present is just too much to deal with.
Madeline the Edifyingzdashamber on February 4th, 2009 08:04 am (UTC)
She's probably in a deep well of depression. Walled off the first post and wrote it off; the second post, couldn't get around to figuring out how to preban people without the comment there to delete. Still Fail for not banning Igor in the first post when I presume she deleted his muck.
Lauratavella on February 4th, 2009 06:08 pm (UTC)
"mental breakdown" has come into my scope of potential explanations, yeah.
Mayhem Parva: (plaidphoenix) cameron Microsoftraincitygirl on February 4th, 2009 07:21 pm (UTC)
She's obviously not in a good place right now emotionally. I'd feel bad for her (as someone who still struggles iwth depression) if it wasn't for t he fact that her bad place has been hurting innocent people like whoa. Actually, I do feel bad for her, it's just not enough to let her off the hook for her actions.

A couple of her friends have been patiently hammering away in the public post trying to get her to see reason, though. I'd say they're MUCH better friends to her than that other lot.
Travis: gaankyuuketsukirui on February 4th, 2009 08:32 am (UTC)
Wow. Every day I think she can't possibly get worse, yet she's determined to prove me wrong...
[will fuck for sex]: all about anaanatsuno on February 4th, 2009 10:27 am (UTC)
OT
Hello you! Is that a new icon? What's it say? *nosy*

Tavella, sorry - I get comment notifs on some posts in my inbox, so I got a link to your post that way - which, er, yes - We don't know each other but I know Grace *points up* so thought I could hail her from your comments. :)
Travis: high five!kyuuketsukirui on February 4th, 2009 10:37 am (UTC)
Re: OT
Newish? It's Yotsuba and the text says "gaan" which is the sound of disappointment in Japanese.
Lauratavella on February 4th, 2009 06:03 pm (UTC)
Re: OT
Oh, no problem. Hiya!
Lanamuliebris on February 4th, 2009 01:37 pm (UTC)
I looked her up on wiki and realize I've been criticizing her for years and never even knew she existed.

The older we get, the more the internet remains the same.
Stephanieallthelivesofme on February 4th, 2009 02:25 pm (UTC)
Oh. My. God. That's awful. :-(
Katejuliansinger on February 4th, 2009 04:49 pm (UTC)
What confuses me /most/ about this is that she DID (finally) ban the darkkerblogistan LJ. So it's just... inexplicable.
Lauratavella on February 4th, 2009 06:39 pm (UTC)
She finally booted igorsanchez too, but y'know, when it only happens when you are publically shamed into it...
Kazkazaera on February 4th, 2009 05:18 pm (UTC)
...I don't follow her on LJ and have very little idea of what's going on, but man. I used to enjoy reading Making Light.
Lauratavella on February 4th, 2009 05:51 pm (UTC)
Me too. Hell, I've "known" her, in the sense of moving in the same internet spaces with her and exchanging the occasional communication, for at least a decade, maybe as much as two. And I generally liked and admired her -- sure, she could be kind of smug and arrogant, but so could I (oh, so could I.)

It's a really sickening, bitter disappointment.
Kazkazaera on February 4th, 2009 07:00 pm (UTC)
To tell the truth, I think I kind of looked up to her a little. In the sense of - look, here is someone who is *in* the whole professional writing scene and does not think fanfic is the scum of the earth! Especially early on in my fanficcing career that was very reassuring, and I was so happy reading her thread about how fanfic is a totally natural, etc. thing. Started following ML after that and... this really hurts. I wish I could ignore this and pretend she's still the person I really admired, but that would just be willful ignorance and damnit.

Am reading some of the stuff now and... god. God.
Stella Omegadharma_slut on February 4th, 2009 05:32 pm (UTC)
Well to be fair, it took her nearly a week to get around to my post so she could ban me for being a sock puppet.

Made.

Of.

Fail.
Really, Truly.theotherbaldwin on February 4th, 2009 06:43 pm (UTC)
For what it's worth...
I went to you link, saw a deleted comment, and this replay from tnh:

Igor, you are mentally ill. You need to see a doctor. Even if you're satisfied with yourself just the way you are, it's possible that the mechanism of your illness is life-threatening. Please get help.

I'm going to ban you now.
Ithilianaithiliana on February 4th, 2009 06:55 pm (UTC)
Re: For what it's worth...
I just posted about that--but didn't think to copy! Good thinking!
Jonquil Serpyllumjonquil on February 4th, 2009 08:07 pm (UTC)
Re: For what it's worth...
Whoa. Pot. Kettle.
kynnkynn on February 5th, 2009 02:41 pm (UTC)
Re: For what it's worth...
Her ableism is disturbing to me.

Really, I am serious -- I don't like the way she stigmatizes mental illness as a way of flaming someone for being a privileged asshole.

Luke/Igor is fuckwit, but I don't see any evidence that he's mentally ill.
The Empress of Ice Creamicecreamempress on February 5th, 2009 06:19 pm (UTC)
Re: For what it's worth...
Yes, this.

Some people's mental illness issues do have manifestations that include racist paranoia and racist perseveration (and this can be really really unfortunate in a group home setting for obvious reasons).

And this has nothing to do with Luke, because "hatefulness" and "arrogance" are not in the DSM-IV last time I checked.
kynnkynn on February 5th, 2009 07:21 pm (UTC)
Re: For what it's worth...
Obnoxious Attorney Personality Disorder.

Wasn't he one of the supporting characters on Ally McBeal?
Ithiliana: Lurtz and Evil Minionsithiliana on February 4th, 2009 06:55 pm (UTC)
Especially when it comes to the fact that although she did ban him, she did so with a nice comment advising him to get help for his own good because he may be mentally ill!

As opposed to the others she banned with a snide comment, passive-agressive attack, or other nastiness?

*head wanders off to find more desks*

(New Satiric icon made in honor of RaceFail200!)
Jonquil Serpyllumjonquil on February 4th, 2009 08:02 pm (UTC)
I am astonished. She's had plenty of time by now.

WHAT THE FUCK IS SHE THINKING?
Elspethelspethdixon on February 4th, 2009 08:16 pm (UTC)
Oh my holy God. Pretty much every internet discussion forum I've encountered other than 4chan /b/ wouldn't even allow that kind of language to be used in the first place. And I suspect even 4chan would take steps to shut up someone who used n-word that extensively, even if only in the form of other posters shouting.

He should have been deleted after the first comment, and banned after the second (or at the very least banned at the same time that she banned his other sockpuppet identity - banning one of his lj usernames but not the other makes no sense). If she wants to preserve a record of his behavior for posterity, that's what screencaps are for.
Noirla_vie_noire on February 4th, 2009 10:21 pm (UTC)
Thank you. Then Shetterly can say "but he was already outed!"
DNA: toastweaselmotleypolitico on February 5th, 2009 12:47 am (UTC)
Why should I or anyone else care about this person's blog, and whether she can or can't figure out how to wield the banhammer?

Just curious. Seems like a lot of angst that I can't put into appropriate context.
saphira112: Cassian is Not Pleasedsaphira112 on February 5th, 2009 12:50 am (UTC)
Sheeshus O_o